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August 4, 2013
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So... that last journal was a doosie wasn't it? 500+ comments and counting! Yikes. I can always count on Anita Sarkeesian to give me tons of views, lol. All joking aside, that was a very serious batch of discussions. Anytime we talk about sexism and objectification of women in gaming or geek culture, it's sure to get a lot of responses.

Sadly since Anita is such a hot-topic around the internet, there was more than one person who were trying to claim that there actually isn't ANY issue with the game industry involving sexism at all. To them, this whole idea that women are marginalized or objectified or treated badly both in the gaming industry and in geek culture is just false. It doesn't exist. And any attempt to explain why we need to change things is inherently flawed because there's no reason to do so.

So in the interest of trying to debunk that bullshit, I made a list of sources I accumulated around the internet to prove that this is indeed a problem. I think everyone can benefit from this list, so I'm gonna repost it below for anyone who doubts that this is a thing to look at. Of course you should all just google things on your own, but since I already did most of the leg-work, maybe this will make things easier for all of us to reach the same understanding.

And keep in mind, this list of links is just a small fraction of what's actually out there. Please if you view any of these and want to learn more, go to google and search for it. It's out there. It's very much out there.

Anyway, on with the links!

****

Business website talking about the sexism in the gaming industry specifically about booth babes employed at E3 to attract the attention of men while 45-50% of the attendees are actually women: www.nzherald.co.nz/business/ne…

A woman working in the industry created a hashtag for twitter to expose reasons why the game industry is sexist and to let other women in the industry speak out about it: kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-dev… and if Kotaku isn't a reliable enough source for you, here's the huffington post: www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11…

A news article talking about why we can't seem to move beyond the sexism in the industry: www.slate.com/blogs/future_ten… and an article about how women are treated at geek conventions: www.slate.com/articles/double_…

Documentary kickstarted funded for talking about sexism in the gaming industry: www.polygon.com/2013/5/5/43028…

Naughty Dog demanding female members for a focus group about having a woman on the cover of their game: www.gameinformer.com/b/news/ar…

New York Times criticizing Last of Us for having male lead: www.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/art…

An article about how Remember Me was rejected by publishers because it had a female lead: www.joystiq.com/2013/03/20/pub… and an article about why they chose a female character instead of male: www.vg247.com/2013/04/16/remem…

Video Vlog about why it's "not okay" to harass women in nerd culture: www.escapistmagazine.com/video…

Blog about sexism in nerd culture: girlygeekygaming.blogspot.com/…

Controversy surrounding Capcom's Cross Assault video game competition where a game coach harasses his female player to the point of her quitting and refuses to apologize for it because "that's just how things are" kotaku.com/5889066/competitive…

An article about a cosplayer who was sexually harassed at Comic Con who fought back: www.dailydot.com/news/black-ca…

Vlog about the Fake Geek Girl: www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0ggK9…

TED-Talk about harassment of women in gaming: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPYcAS…

****

Keep in mind that these are only just SOME of the examples that exist out there to show that this is a PROBLEM. Also, please remember that acknowledging that there is a problem doesn't mean you have to stop liking video games or comics or geek culture at all. On the contrary. Continue to enjoy your video games and your cosplay and comic cons and E3 presentations, just be aware that this is a thing going on and to call it out if you ever stumble across it on your own. The more people who are aware it's a problem, the more likely we'll be able to clean it up and get rid of it.
  • Listening to: Escapist Podcats
  • Watching: The Simpsons Season 13
  • Playing: King Arthur's Gold
  • Eating: Hamburgers
  • Drinking: Earl Grey Tea
Add a Comment:
 
:iconnotmolo:
NotMolo Featured By Owner Aug 13, 2013
Fuck modern feminism and their huge victim complex and fuck Anita Sarkeesisn. She has proved that she thinks everyone who disagrees with her is a troll. She takes things out of context to suit her own agenda, the game about the princess she is helping produce shows how hypocritical she is, she connects violence to women in video games to violence towards women in real life like Jack Thompson. (Because it worked so great for him, right?) Her future line up of videos will just include her being extremely picky and to make male gamers feel like shit for ever liking the games.

Princess Peach HAS been playable in many games, but Anita just gave the bullshit response of, "Oh, there aren't part of the main series so they don't count" like some ungrateful child.

Female lead? Wait, she has boos I can see. Sexulized!
Female lead? Oh, she hasn't got any boobs I can see. It's just a male character with a female skin!

I don't care if I get shit for this. I am gay and you don't see me crying about the lack of gay characters in video games. I am far more concered with the treatment of them in the real world, not a virtual world meant for fun and entrainment. 

And don’t give me the “check your privileges” bullshit.  Anita has her work showed and praised in schools, has raised a shit ton of money, owns expensive equipment, and is allowed on TV and news shows to play her “I am a victim, feel sorry for me” card and there are male and females who support her.
Reply
:iconattaora:
Attaora Featured By Owner Sep 15, 2013  Student Filmographer
I agree with most of what you said (I am a woman). Personally, I find characters like Peach not interesting but I can live with it no problem.
What bothers me is when there's a obvious sexualisation of female characters (it's just as wrong to do it with males) like in Soul Calibur, for example. Gravity defying, atrociously huge boobs with super obvious niples and a suit of armor that is pretty much a g-string made out of metal. THAT bothers me.
Reply
:iconneuroticcheeze:
Neuroticcheeze Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2013
I'm not against this, but srsly.. Taking offence at it is of no point, this isn't going to change. We're sexist towards each other, there really are issues of more concern..
Reply
:iconzedona:
Zedona Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
This is a very prevalent issue. Unfortunately, it probably won't change until there are more women in the industry. Gaming is male dominated, as are most industries. The New York Times article you used about The Last of Us made some good points. I felt like Naughty Dog could have gone much farther with Ellie than they did, but how can a 30 something-year-old male programmer or writer relate to a 15 year-old girl who lives in a world under martial law with a form of cordyceps that affects humans?
It's easier for a man to relate to a man. I have never met a man who can sit down with a woman and talk about how periods are a curse or how breast-feeding takes a lot out of them. If the gaming industry doesn't have many women, then how are they supposed to make games that can relate to women?
Many colleges are giving scholarships to women for computer science degrees, because in that field, we are a minority. I was a Computer Science(CS) major for a while. There were only girls in my class including me. Out of 70 class members, only four were female. I switched majors because I couldn't program at all. I didn't understand my assignments even when they were explained thoroughly, but some of those other girls would be done with their assignments before the next day.
This can go back to what we are always told: boys are better at math and science, and girls are better at grammar and literature. When society beats it into our heads that no girl can succeed in a math or science related career or that nerds permeate a certain career, we don't want to go into that career. You know the number one reason I got when I asked other girls outside of CS, who could have done it, didn't? Because the guys were creepy and they didn't think they could do it because their math scores weren't high enough(that came from a girl who had top scores in a college level Calculus class). Yeah, some of the guys were creepy, but all in all, most of them were alright. I couldn't talk to them about some things like having guys stare at my chest(since they did it too) or running out of pads and trying to buy some discretely. 
One solution to sexism in gaming is to get some more girls in there. Games like Skyrim or possibly Fable( I say Fable because the clothes can go either way on a male or female character, plus you can make the males were makeup and corsets) make the male/female decision almost obsolete. In Skyrim, it doesn't matter if you are a female talking lizard. You are still the Dovakin. In Fable, you could play as a woman, wear men's clothes, and be fat. You are still the Hero of Albion. If more women join the ranks of EA, Bungie, Activision, Ubisoft, Naughty Dog, Valve, etc., there might be more games with women as leads. 
But The Last of Us isn't an RPG. You are stuck with Joel as a lead. We can't change the past. We can only change the future.
Reply
:iconkyuremobsession:
KyuremObsession Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I like multiplayer online games, and the ones I play don't have anything against girls, so I'm good!
Reply
:iconjessebuijink:
JesseBuijink Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm mostly an rpg player. That genre is extremely sexualised (i guess most of you know that). Xenoblade Chronicles is a fantastic game, but one of its flaws is the extreme sexualisation of some of the characters. The male armours are extremely protective, whereas the female versions have huge area of unprotected naked skin, especially in the chest area. 
Most rpg have this issue, but there are of course exceptions. 
The monster hunter franchise (not a true rpg, but still) has fantastic armour designs, with most of the female armours being actually protective. I think its a good thing to have reasonable armour for once, because of sexism and realism.
Reply
:iconhannahkagamine11:
HannahKagamine11 Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2013  Student General Artist
In one of my roleplays, I actually FIGHT.
Reply
:iconvilhiem:
Vilhiem Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013
Okay, here's one for you...

It's a good book, thought not directly based upon the topic here at hand, it provides a similar and useful bit of insight into a similar topic.  Violence in gaming. 

www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_…

This is a great read for anyone who is into this type of debate.  :)

On the note of the topic at hand...  If sexism *isn't* an issue in games, then why is it that the more armor that is worn by a female character, the less protection it has?  Or, in the case for male armor, the more spikes and badass it looks (instead of sexy, or what has been dubbed sexy.) the more protection it offers.

I recall some games where the armor was interchangeable between male and female characters.  Great idea!  ...until you realized that the armor seemed to change drastically depending upon who wore it.

There are other games which include, and I quote, "breast physics" where a specific algorithm and equation is used JUST for the sole purpose adding a little "bounce" to the games that are played.  I'm pretty sure that male "breasts" move too when they move, so why hasn't there been any addition in that?

To make the final bit, it isn't hard to see just from the covers of games how bad sexism is used..not just to attract more players, but to keep them roped in. 

I'm a guy...and it sickens me to see this type thing used repeatedly.  So much for moving forward in society, eh?
Reply
:iconjacij:
jacij Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013   General Artist
Whoops sorry posted the wrong link (It's someone's cut down version of the episode). Here's the full episode (3min 10s) www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ljebp…
Reply
:iconjacij:
jacij Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013   General Artist
Dorkness Rising: Funny show for those who haven't seen it. Go forward to 1min 40s for stereotyped female characters- bikini mail anyone? (And the character she ends up playing, and playing well lol) youtu.be/_javitMe8FY
Reply
:iconyagamiyoshi:
YagamiYoshi Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I finally watched the series thanks to your journals and it was really interesting. It's a shame things have progressed so little. I'll have to check out some of those further links.
Reply
:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Professional General Artist
People keep talking about burly men and skinny passive women who would be naked at a sneeze being the sexism...

Uh... the latter is true... but the first... not really. The first is men putting on what their dream is.

If you want to know what sexualising men would ACTUALLY look like... please, read every slash fiction on ff.n... look at everything Po-Ju has done (I fucking love that asshole--dude saved my life)... then just go on a Yaoi binge.

Then you'll look at those burly men, and realise: those are more just men putting their dream on... it is not sexualisation.

Women putting their dream on would probably look closer to Sailor Moon or Puella Magi Madoka Magicka. As women do dress up to try to look nice. Not for anybody else really... but because looking nice is something having large amounts of estrogen in your system forces you to want to have to do. Characters in those series are a mix of brave, competent, emotionally beautiful, skillful and physically beautiful... more so in the Japanese version than... everything that happened in the American version. They go through whole ranges of emotions... and end up stronger from it. Yeah... there are outfits that do come across as striperriffic, generally there is a minimum level of dressing formal style that is met... and most girls stick to the levels of formality required.

If the men were really being sexualised in the industry... they'd all look like designs that would today are mostly not seen much outside of the works of Po-Ju and a few other Cross Dressing character artists in Japan. Yes, Po-Ju has them prepubescent... but that is mostly to have them being feminized before the issues of male puberty start changing them. Which, if you've ever talked with transgender... that probably is the best notion ever. But then... most of the sexualised women tend to be depicted as being in an illegal looking age range as well (for their target look).

I mean... considering I have to look to Japan to find anything to counter it, and even then I have to look specifically into a porn industry that the main purchasers are female for sexualised male... and a magazine market that is a form of coming of age story for women. I guess in Japan when women go menstrual sparkles, hearts, flowers, butterflies and ribbons fly out of their cooch... as otherwise the metaphor is a bit lost on me. Yes... magical girl stories are a metaphorical story for a woman having Aunt Flo bring her monster of the month for a week. No... it is only doing terrible things in my head.

Though in sports industries and construction worker industries the first areas of inspiration to allow women to get their foot in the door was also inspiration brought about by mother nature being a fucking bitch. Seriously... toss trash into the oceans... to get her back. >.>'

Oh right... uh... burly men are not sexualised men. And fixing the women isn't necessarily about putting "sensible clothing" onto them. It is more making them more emotionally warm and receptive characters who deal with issues and come out stronger. A female character could be wearing pasties and a fig leaf, and provided she was emotionally receptive and matured over the course of the story... then it would actually work.
Reply
:iconrainmason:
RainMason Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Professional General Artist
I can't believe that anyone would think that there wasn't any sexism. I admit, until last year I seriously underestimated the prevalence of sexism - I grew up in a small village in a family of 4 women + my dad, where sexism towards men or women just wasn't a factor. I played with trucks and my cousins played with barbies, and it was no big deal.

But now I am studying in the Games section at university, in their technology campus, where the ratio has been up to 21 men to every women (I think it's 14:1 this year), and the sexism I've seen sickens me. I've never really been one for feminism, because I have broader views about gender that amount to the same result in a different way, but I am finding myself more and more aware of what goes on around me each time someone does something in my classes. And it's horrifically often. The video game industry only seems to be supporting these views.

I couldn't believe the resistance I got when I told my friends - all male- about why I thought that they should change their designs for our final project, when all of them drew burly, Game of Thrones-eque men, and skinny passive women who would be naked at a sneeze. I got every response under the sun, from 'sex sells' to 'quit being a pussy'. The most offensive one I got was 'I through you were attracted to women to', which I am, but is utterly irrelevant. Not one of them believe themselves to be sexist, despite making comments nearly every day which show sexism towards both men and women.

I am amazed that people can be so blind to these things.
Reply
:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Professional General Artist
To the "I thought you were attracted to women too" just reply:

"I AM attracted to women. What you drew there isn't a woman... it is some kind of alien fish creature. Draw me what a real woman looks like."

To the "sex sells" tell him to make the guys look more like what would work in Yaoi... so that the guys can add to the sex selling quotient... rather than women doing all the work in the game. Essentially DracoInLeatherPants with near Bishonen type rankings... and BishieSparkle EVERYWHERE.

To the "quit being a pussy" reply to "take that back! Or we shall roshambo over it! With me kicking first! You pussy!"... or something similar to that.

The irritating part is they are ESPECIALLY blind to what sexualising the male would look like. Throw a copy of Twilight on their desk, the Gravitation series and some printed off DracoInLeatherPants fan fictions... "look, if you are going to sexualise the women... at least do so consistently with the men" sort of thing.
Reply
:iconisobel-theroux:
Isobel-Theroux Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thanks for the links and bringing more awareness for this issue. Seeing how women are harassed like this used to convince me that I should just stick to the background of things and keep quiet but now I realize just how wrong I was to do that. So thanks for opening my eyes :clap:
Reply
:iconplease-not-last:
Please-Not-Last Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013  Student General Artist
I love the fact that you put so much time into your arguments - or in this case, finding credible links as your arguments. :D

Honestly, I'd love a well-rounded female protagonist for once. Thank you for calling out this problem!

Reply
:iconlordkheldar:
LordKheldar Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013
Someone really should do a piece about all that terrible objectification of men.

I mean, look at Captain Titus of the Space Marines, or Eddie Riggs the Roadie, or Adam Jensen the Augmented... and so many others.

Point: don't mix things up. 

"objectification of women in gaming or geek culture"? True, not a problem. It's games we're talking about here, and like mainstream movies, they're presenting memes and stereotypes. As a player, you're aware that this is not real life.

"cosplayer who was sexually harassed" --> that's not ok. This is real life and should be dealt with accordingly. It does however raise the question of "where exactly is the limit". From my understanding, that girl lives off enticing men with cosplays. She's hot, and that's what sells, not her cosplay. Look t the amount of great costume-makers that aren't so hot and haven't got a huge following.  While these guys were obviously creeps, it does feel like she only wishes the bright side of the coin. Pretty much like selling alcohol to already overly drunk men, but not wanting any trouble from ebriated people, in my opinion.

"booth babes"? I personally feel that as long as women will be used to sell cars, and women will enjoy special men-free sporthalls to avoid men looking at them ( while I don't get a woman-free sport hall to avoid women looking at me... whatever, I can handle rejection at my puny muscles's sight very well, or not ), this will be pretty much a dishonest argument. Men like booth babes. If a law makes it illegal to use sex to sell unrelated stuff, fine, but banning it for any other reason is typical american religious extremism, disguised as "fighiting for women rights". Let me remind you that the main argument for veiling women is their own protection, including the protection of their sexual objectification. It's a very dangerous ground to tread. I however understand that others may disagree, and democracy is about what the majority feels to be right, so if most people disagree with me, so be it!

I'll sure share this piece with my girlfriend though, just to know her opinion ^^
Reply
:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Professional General Artist
To the "booth babes" refuting...

My argument is: lets see more man candy in selling with sex. Like really really twinkish gay guy looking people all (twink) gayed the fuck up. They don't have to be twink gay... they just have to know... I WILL be shipping them in my head with the other male candy booth babe... and writing slash fiction... that I might possibly choose to not shout from the top of my lungs as I recite to them.

Also... let's see more "slutty men" costumes at Halloween. Considering most of the female costumes look like stuff that is just normally in my wardrobe (but overpriced versions of it)... it is irritating that the men's costumes look like fucking burkas drapped over men. Just by comparison. Let's start having men be able to have Chippendale dancer look costumes for Halloween... and have that slowly become more and more common.

Seriously... if I were to NOT dress like a whore for Halloween... I'd actually be wearing far more clothing than I usually feel comfortable doing (seriously... the stores look like they were taking inspiration from stuff that is just normal wardrobe outfits for me). What we need to stop stop having men wearing those fucking hijeeb type outfits on Halloween... seriously, look at how loose and baggy and stuff they are.

Now then... to go look at more terrible slash fiction... and just think about how this isn't any different from men looking at lesbian porn... and expecting women to be able to be gay/bi for them... and think, "how much better the world would be... if men also had to deal with that same complaint."
Reply
:iconlordkheldar:
LordKheldar Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013
"how much better the world would be... if men also had to deal with that same complaint." --> maybe they do?
Reply
:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Professional General Artist
Right now the concept of being Edward from Twilight is still considered a laughable idea.

When we start having places men frequent and have money spent at, without the purpose of getting into people pants... like maybe a bowling ally, or something... I don't fucking know... start suggesting men look like fucking twink ass gay guys and have the people saying, "that is stupid" become the whiny minority... then it will be the same.

Right now, in various places women frequent and spend money at, without the purpose of getting into people's pants... are filled with media and publication to try to look like E.T. from the Steven Spielberg movie, as if you don't look like one of them creatures that will anal probe you, you won't get on the cover of Cosmo magazine, and you will be called hideous.

Essentially, men don't have to deal with the same complaint being targetted onto their gender... as when it happens there, most people recognise it is fucking special. Like, "Mrs. Kraboble, I'm not allowed scissors, special"

We need to get to a point where people look at it happening to women, and associate it with being as much of a special kid as Ralph Wiggum.
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:iconlordkheldar:
LordKheldar Featured By Owner Aug 9, 2013
Edward is a very bad example. It's a character without any depth whatsoever, designed only to please the average teenage girl (and I'd like to say, the lower average pre-teenage girl, most probably). Besides, Twilight is a terrible thing to happen to the world, probably even worse than Transformers (and that's something).

Pick another Vampire: Lestat in Tom Cruise's Interview with the Vampire, or Alucard because he's got class, or any of Buffy's boyfriends, either on the really macho (Angel), or the slightly gayish side (but which girl isn't slightly attracted to masculine gayish guys ? In my experience, a bit of feminity in your manhood gets the girl, though the amount can be a mess to get right). Not Edward, please. My brain boils, peeeeeep, it's cooked.

And ralph Wiggum can act, sing, play the piano, tapdance and occasionally deliver tidbits of wisdom. He's awesome.
Reply
:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 9, 2013  Professional General Artist
Edward is the best example ever.

He is a character without any depth whatsoever designed to please the average undersexed person needing an outlet for lust.

Edward represents EVERYTHING about what a male version of how women get portrayed.

Look at all the "sexist displays of women" and realise that 9 times out of 10, those are "female Edwards"... and understand THIS IS WHAT THE PROBLEM EXACTLY IS.

Imagine how upset you'd be if everywhere was presenting Edward as "the ultimate man" and everybody was compared on a scale of how close they were to being Edward... and if you weren't close, you weren't worth being a person. Even without that, you are pretty much upset over the matter.

Now add that any time you brought up how Edward kind of is the most useless tool in the shed of useless tools lowest class society of terrible tools. Any time you brought up what a terrible 8x10 Toolshed Edward is, people would come up with terrible reasons to justify it. "Oh... Edward is too polite to point out when Bella is menstruating" , "Edward is perfect for caring", "Edward is strong and stuff". Terrible terrible ways to justify this depiction of a person shaped thing.

Then, you might understand what the whole issue with sexism and the sexual stereotypes women deal with are actually about.

Edward is the male version... of what is everywhere in what women are told to be. If men did deal with it... Edward would be fucking everywhere.
Reply
:iconlordkheldar:
LordKheldar Featured By Owner Aug 9, 2013
You're obviously not a guy. 

You get compared to Hollywood stars all the time (think, Pattinson, DiCaprio, Brad Pitt, Wolverine-actor-with-chest-out-of-shirt).
You don't ressemble them? You're a nerd, not even worthy of leaving your basement.

Life's like that. We deal with it. Edward is just a badly designed character, and worthy of no interest whatsoever. We don't have to accept Hollywood's dictates because we humans have brains, and girls/guys are equally blessed with those great machines called neurons. My opinion is that girls not willing to use their brains to realize I'm better than the cliches shown by Hollywood are not the type of girls I'd be happy with. Terrible reasons to justify characters aren't worth our time. If the character is shallow, if the show is shallow, we should ignore them. Catherine the Great is a character worthy of making a movie about. Giacomo Casanova, self-styled "De Seingalt", is a character worthy of making a movie about. They're also real life people. Casanova in particular is fascinating (if you read his memories? if you haven't get them, they are worth the read). He definitely isn't your supercharged muscle monster, in a world full of warriors and  fighters. He's a man of wits and sexiness and seduction and elegance, using make-up and jewels and silk and secrecy and perfume and soft words. He's also one of the archetypes of the Seducer. Sexism, come to think of it, is just a limitation of those who can't see that they are not bound to what society pretends they have to be. Casanova could have caved in, turned into the average muscle-monster bearing uniforms and a moustache and draping in their battle-earned bravado. He also would have faded into history.

Hence, I don't care at all that the machist, sexist depictions of men and women according to Hollywood do not represent what I am. I'm better than that. You're better than that. 

Hollywood is the issue. Not us, and definitely not "displays of women (and men)".
As soon as people start realizing that it's all about wits anyway, Hollywood's cliches will collapse into irrelevance. Edward is the Justin Bieber of vampires: a shallow product, with lots of shine and no point whatsoever. Besides, Bella's just as shallow and useless, because Twilight is a horrible show/book. Why don't they do an Asimov Foundation series? Ah, wait. Too complicated for the masses. Typical Hollywood thinking...

I hope my position is clear and convincing to you ^^

Reply
:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 11, 2013  Professional General Artist
You... you write a lot of stuff that just gets really close to understanding my point... then you dance away from it.

You're obviously not a guy.

You'd be surprised at how often people miss that...

You get compared to Hollywood stars all the time (think, Pattinson, DiCaprio, Brad Pitt, Wolverine-actor-with-chest-out-of-shirt). You don't ressemble them? You're a nerd, not even worthy of leaving your basement.

Is that by other guys... or by girls?

Also Pattinson, DiCaprio and Brad Pitt are not interesting because they have chests... it is their eyelashes that have girls into them. Except for Brad Pitt it is the nonthreatening appearance.

Edward is just a badly designed character, and worthy of no interest whatsoever.

So is nearly every overly sexualised female character. Just going to say that.

Would you want to join in on something where every guy is Edward?

If the character is shallow, if the show is shallow, we should ignore them.

Okay... perhaps you should think about why women don't really enjoy checking out video games then?

He definitely isn't your supercharged muscle monster, in a world full of warriors and  fighters. He's a man of wits and sexiness and seduction and elegance, using make-up and jewels and silk and secrecy and perfume and soft words. He's also one of the archetypes of the Seducer. Sexism, come to think of it, is just a limitation of those who can't see that they are not bound to what society pretends they have to be.

Dude... or maybe you don't get my point here.

My point is: male supercharged muscle monsters are NOT what women are sexually after.

Men and women have a different sexuality. Men it appears to be entirely the physical appearance... which is why they confuse women for sexualising the same way as them.

Much like how anything on the cover of Cosmo is a cheap rip off of Marilyn Monroe, Edward is the modern day cheap rip off Giacoma Casanova.

Casanova could have caved in, turned into the average muscle-monster bearing uniforms and a moustache and draping in their battle-earned bravado. He also would have faded into history.

Because that isn't what women want.

Simply put, that would never be viewed as a "sexualised male" from the female standpoint.

Hollywood is the issue. Not us, and definitely not "displays of women (and men)".

Well, the fact people also enable Hollywood is ALSO the issue here as well.

As enabling people being jerks is kind of a thing.

Edward is the Justin Bieber of vampires: a shallow product, with lots of shine and no point whatsoever.

You clearly missed my point.

To reinterate what I was getting at here: men are not sexualised in society, and do not have to deal with the same issues women do there, as the "sexualised version of a man" is not anywhere near as prevalent as the "sexualised version of a woman"

Discounting homosexuality as that will only confuse the point even further...

Women are not into the physical presence of men, as what men believe the sexualised version of them is.

Edward and Justin Bieber are wonderful examples of the sort of images that would be required to be everywhere for men to say they deal with the same issue as women.

You clearly don't.

As what you are defining is more men doing powerfantasies... not being sexualised.

The female power fantasy is being super confident, competant and good looking at whatever it is we do. Able to walk around like we own the fucking place, able to do well in any skill based endevour--and possible strength based ones too... and be able to look attractive while doing this. Attractive by females competing with other females to look nice.

Women DO compete with each other to look nice. We'd do it even if all the men just disappeared.

The female super competant, super confident and good looking girl is the power fantasy equivalent to men with super muscles being manly and shit.

The male being Edward and Justin Beiber is the sexualised equivalent to women being depicted how we tend to be depicted.

The most confusing part of the whole thing is: men forget that women DO think different. A lot of women forget that as well. Usually around the time they call all men idiots. As typically when you don't understand how somebody things, it is easy to think they are just stupid.

So yeah... that macho muscle man thing? That is not men being sexualised. That is a male power fantasy. The two are different concepts. If men WERE being sexualised... Justin Beiber and Edward would be the normal depiction of men in the media and everywhere. With magazines telling men how to be more like that.
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(1 Reply)
:iconrevivedracer209:
revivedracer209 Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist

Now that you mentioned Hollywood, I remember hearing that certain genres of games were getting old pretty fast.

 

About this topic, though, I think the only place for sex is in the bedroom of a loving couple.

There should be little or no place in it for video games. Yet, look at some games that feature hyperbolic women, or sexually desirable women, or extremely titillating clothing. Such clothing was inspired by actresses, or actors, in sexualizing attire.

 

In short, outside sources, like Hollywood, inspires games, and in this age, vice versa. Therefore, Hollywood seems to be the biggest factor in this equation.

 

Agree^^

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:iconzo-za:
zo-za Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I find a massive problem with geeks/nerds in general is that they always think there is one definite reason behind someone liking something, and won't accept 'I like it because I like it' (Circular argument, but sometimes that's all there is)

They expect girls and women to only like something because of men. A cute guy in a film, a cute guy in their own life who they want to impress, or just to impress the male gender as a whole.

Here's the shocking thing for these men: IT ISN'T ALWAYS ABOUT YOU.
Yes some girls take part in these things for other people, and some may do it because they like the male attention. So what? They're still having fun, they still enjoy it. Yes the cute guys in films we like are a bonus, but can they honestly say they don't like a film a little more when there's a sexy woman in it?

I know guys who have literally JUST watched films because a hot girl is in them and that is considered okay. But if I watch Star Trek and also like Benedict Cumberbatch, or watch the Hobbit and also like Martin Freeman, well I must ONLY be watching that for the guys! I must not care about the characters or the plot in the slightest, I must be a 'Fake Geek Girl'.

Accept that some people watch things because of another persons influence (be that to impress someone or a hot actor).
What harm does it do?
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:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 6, 2013  Professional General Artist
This just showed up in my sidebar...

It isn't just in Video Gaming.

The WHOLE Geekdom is the most repressed held back style of doing things in all social styling and areas. As much as geeks talk about being forward thinking, I have no idea how that could be the truth when "they changed it, it sucks" is so rampant.

When Garth in Wayne's World said the lines, "We fear change" is probably the most accurate snap shot for the forward thinking that geek culture contains.

It certainly does not surprise me that when you can expect the jocks and the construction workers to be okay with women. The jocks mostly just to join the Women's Field Hockey Team for a single game to get them to stop being jerks to women. The construction workers just needed gay rights and to be questioned, "do you only want to look at sausage all day? Okay, maybe you enjoy that homosexual stuff, the rest of us don't" and a few whipped towels.

With Geeks the main issue is: many of them expect they will be alone and nobody will like them. That exists in the head of too many geeks. In fact for some reason the geeks have this notion of being single much higher and harder than the emo/scene kids. Which does irritating things in my head. Add a bit of an ego to the matter.

Jocks you pit them in with the Women's Field Hockey Team... and... you've pretty much humbled the ego. Geeks (in games) and they can accuse the women of hacks, crit-hit wins, luck based wins, it being a bad day, their sexual appeal distracting them, being a whore--and if that is if being just not plain abusive and sabotaging didn't work.

The geeks are all about Garth's Quote "We Fear Change" and the Tv Trope TheyChangedItNowItSucks... add how a lot of geeks are so neurotic that if you have the potatoes touching the peas on their dinner tray you've doomed them to starvation... and you pretty much have shown how backwards all areas that Geeks have control over really stands as being.

Part of the mindset is the refusal to want to expand and change their current mindsets and to learn new things. Geeks are not about "learning new stuff and experiencing new things"... it is about "knowing a lot on the one subject that I've looked into and specialize into, and bitching anytime something new enters that subject matter to learn"
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:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 6, 2013  Professional General Artist
"You didn't win... you... you had an aimbot... AND YOU ARE A WHORE! AND! I was going easy on you!"

Pretty much any geek guy that lost a game to a girl.
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:iconlynkofwinds:
LynKofWinds Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013
I know right. -_-
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:icondarkness2118:
Darkness2118 Featured By Owner Aug 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I have to definitely agree with this. I don't know why there are so many immature guys out there that think that just because they are a guy it means they are better at gaming. Well they are wrong. I'm a guy and I will admit that there are so called "tough" and "manly" games out there that my sister can beat me at. Like for instance she is more of an X-box fan and plays a lot of those kinds of games. I like those games but I prefer games by Square-enix and naughty dog mostly. People just needs to realize that women are just as good as men and a gamer girl would actually be my perfect match lol ^_^
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:iconlynkofwinds:
LynKofWinds Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013
You're a man and you're being nice....
What are you smoking? O.O
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:icondarkness2118:
Darkness2118 Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
The only thing I smoke is cigarettes. The reason I'm so nice is that I grew up with my mom and sister. My dad was very abusive and I became closer to my mom and sister. I've also seen the truths in the way the world works and I've seen some of the underbelly of how a lot of guys are. I stick up for women because they are more understanding and I've seen how a lot of men can be. Not to mention I also am what some people call an empath. I can feel other people's emotions and I've found that the negative emotions are strongest.
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:iconlynkofwinds:
LynKofWinds Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013
Well, thank you.
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:icondarkness2118:
Darkness2118 Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
You're welcome.
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:icontophat-trexxxy:
TopHat-Trexxxy Featured By Owner Aug 6, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Somehow video game companies haven't realized that Women actually play a huge role in video games targeted towards men.

The reason why sexism exist;

SEX.

Literally.

It's just SEX.

I guess a lot of this would also go with the whole 'Gamer Girl' thing we have. Girls who pretend to be like boys and who act like boys. Who are called 'fake'.

Then there are girls who actually devote just as much of their lives to gaming as men do.

Like me and my sister.

We play some mean Druids on WoW. We can beat her husband and his guy friends for hours on end.

so.

You know.
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:iconfainting-goat:
fainting-goat Featured By Owner Aug 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Funny that I stumble across this today.  One of my coworkers asked my boss today why he didn't have any female characters in WoW and he replied because female characters get harassed and god help you if you're actually a female player and get outed to the server.  And I was just sitting there nodding and going yep, been there, done that.
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:iconnazizombiekiller217:
NaziZombieKiller217 Featured By Owner Aug 6, 2013
oh for the love of-*sighs* there is no way there are Sexism in the gaming industry I should note that Antia lady (the you know does the talk on "how" sexist the industry is) is actally a femanazi? she gives no crap for guys and only picked on series that are considered classics (there have been other games where Peach was playable like Super Mario 2 USA; and the Paper Mario series in witch her time playing can help Mario in the story) the part on New Yorker is stupid.....I mean they are probly Sexist I mean the trailer shows that its a male and female duo protagonists its just the male player is just to actally more or lest to protect he. the Remember me story has to be fake I mean I would reject it cause its story seems stupid really. the Capcom thing is as well has to be fake cause that girl could be lying for god knows what.........
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:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Professional General Artist
Okay! Bingo sheets out people... this one hit the "Justification of Sexism BINGO sheets" entries of:

 * Accusations of being a feminazi
 * Accusations of being a misandrist
 * Pointing to the exceptions to the general state (there is a reason these are exceptions, as they are not the normal)
 * Ad homin attacks on intellect of the writer... also all terribly spelled
 * Generalisation and belittling the argument
 * Statements the story is fake
 * Accusations that the girl lied about being raped.

Dude mang... now to actually hit the biggest part. The TWO games you gave as examples of the exceptions to the general sexism in games are:
Super Mario 2 USA... which I'll note Luigi was made into a Male in the USA version. In Doki Doki Panic that character was a girl.

In Paper Mario... Princess Peach is still a damsel in distress. She never made an effort to escape the castle. She snuck around, but if they spotted her, she was back in her room. Mario never had the same "sneak mission" based setup. Well, there was one part that could be done as a sneak mission... but you could also face those enemies in combat if you knew what you were doing.

Even then... in the entire Mario Bros series... Luigi has gotten more screen time than Peach... and even then Luigi is considered getting the fucking short end of the stick. You are arguing that it is not sexist as the games treat Peach worse than Luigi? Really?
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:iconnazizombiekiller217:
NaziZombieKiller217 Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013

ahem super paper Mario: Luigi isn't seen for like forever yet you get peach for the second character

now with quotes from you: "Ad homin attacks on intellect of the writer... also all terribly spelled" really? is the smarts on me or you? cause I don't like being made fun of you ass

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:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Professional General Artist
I'm trying to not make fun of you. However you are will fully ignorant, and somewhat spastic as you doll out your obvious ignorance.

It is hard not to laugh when you see a clown. The question is: whether you are a clown on purpose.

Total games Peach is playable in:
 * Super Mario USA 2
 * Super Mario RPG
 * Paper Mario
 * Super Princess Peach
 * Super Paper Mario

About five games there, without taking into account Super Smash Bros.

Is Luigi playable in more than five games? Hell, the Mario and Luigi games has four entries in them alone, where Luigi has title status.

Peach gets handled WORSE than Luigi by Nintendo.
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:iconnazizombiekiller217:
NaziZombieKiller217 Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013
actually six cause you forgot Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
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:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Professional General Artist
So you get my point that Princess Peach is STILL behind Luigi on being a playable character in a game? Right?

Hell, Luigi even is depicted as a decent character in his games.

In Super Princess Peach I just decided that Princess Peach was transgender as she was acting like a drag queen that was taking hormones... and not really much of a woman. If it wasn't made my Nintendo, I half imagine she'd be giving a trail of blood throughout the whole game: even on a pacifist run.

When your counter point revolves around a character whose title game looks like something that would barely pass in a bad drag queen show... you just have to realise, "wait... maybe... when the character acts like something that irritates both cisgender women AND transgender women alike... that she might be a good example of why the industry does terrible depictions of women."

I kind of like how you work... you argue against the sexism... but you do it in a way that only validates that the sexism exists.
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:iconnazizombiekiller217:
NaziZombieKiller217 Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013
What? No in fact you know peach is going to be playable in Super Mario 3d world? Not only that she played how she played in SML 2 USA she can use her umbrella and use the power ups...not that I'm complaining but I can't help but think how would she would look like with the fire flower
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:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 9, 2013  Professional General Artist
Dude don't use games that haven't came out yet to try justify your point here.

But if you cannot even recognise how Peach played TERRIBLY in Super Princess Peach... then you obvious have no fucking clue about women, and need to start realising you are an idiot.

Once you realise you are an idiot, then we can begin working on you not being so stupid about this stuff.
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(1 Reply)
:iconzo-za:
zo-za Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
She focuses on the classics because they are the most well known. And she does talk about the princesses helping the heroes, saying it doesn't really help because they're still only there for the man to use.
I feel like women actually have to be aggressive about sexism to get it noticed, sadly them jerks like you go ahead and call them 'feminazis'. At no point has she ever criticized men. The videos are literally just about how women are represented in videogames, so why should she talk about male characters except when relating it to the women?
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:iconlynkofwinds:
LynKofWinds Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013
Thank youuuuu
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:iconnazizombiekiller217:
NaziZombieKiller217 Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013
he claims half the violence is on women when men have just of bad of having violence by wemen themselves and no it wasn't because she was getting death threats she WON'T LET PEOPLE EXSPRES THERE OWN OPINION WHICH SHE HATES look she critizised Mario just cause peach is taken all the time fans joke that its a deal peach and Bowser has all the whole time she mentions some things about wemen its usally how they are shown and let you know i'm not being a jerk okay I view her as one cause she says everything negative hell she didn'y mention portal, portal 2, Bioshock 2 (which the main villen was a woman who has controlled every splicer in that game), and bioshock infinite which Elisabeth was able to defend he self while booker fought. she ignore these on how the role of wemen are thus she doesn't care at all
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:iconzo-za:
zo-za Featured By Owner Aug 15, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I'm sorry I can't read that at all, if you are going to argue can you at least make your argument coherent.
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:iconkatrinathelamia:
KatrinaTheLamia Featured By Owner Aug 8, 2013  Professional General Artist
Dude, she is in the New Yorker. While it is a more sophisticate publication, it generally understands most of its target audience are not gamers.

The New Yorker also did a publication on Dwarf Fortress being brought into a major museum as part of a piece on video games as literature, and they focused on the games people would know like... Pacman and Space Invaders.

Then to justify the article being in the New Yorker, the ended up having to explain to people what a Sim City was. Sim City--luckily was also being featured in that same display. Lucky for them. As it allowed a simple way to explain to their audience what a Dwarf Fortress was.

The same exhibit had a few PS3 games being featured, but The New Yorker did not mention them apart from a brief part of a paragraph listing "other modern games".

The general target audience for The New Yorker does not know enough about video games, for the articles to refer to them within the context of the article.

Due to space restrictions, they cannot give an indepth explanation to their target audience enough about video games to go beyond stuff that has been around long enough for people to know it is there.

She stuck with Mario because of Brand Awareness. That is all. She couldn't mention Portal or Bioshock as the publication she was posting to would have no clue what she was on about, and her article would not get published.

Same reason that the news still uses really old clips of Doom running on a crappy 486... the target audience would not be able to understand what was going on, in any of the events present.

As much fun as having the news give out information on subjects, the news FAILS if people at home cannot comprehend what the people on the news are talking about.

It is more she is in a media area that she cannot mention that stuff within.
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:iconlynkofwinds:
LynKofWinds Featured By Owner Aug 7, 2013
If she didn't care at all about role of women then why would she be fighting sexism? Let me remind you, since you can't figure it out for yourself, that she wouldn't be fighting offense things against her gender if she didn't care. She didn't talk about THOSE games because they're irrelevant to the topic of sexism in video games. If you were in a project working to fix random broken things, and you saw something that had already been fixed, would you work on it? No. Because that goal's already been met. Same with her. She not talking about those games because they aren't sexist. Why would she?? You're getting mad at people for not only just defending themselves, but you're getting mad at them for not doing things, when they didn't need to have been done in the first place. You're completely wrong and so ignorant. She'd not. Open up your eyes. Men do not get hurt by women nearly as often as women get hurt by men. Yes it does happen, but stop pretending that women are horrible perfect and that you are perfect. Hate to break your pathetic bubble, but the ratio of men to women doing things like rape, murder and theft is much higher on the men side. Women do these posts because they're sick of it. Sick of people like you.
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