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December 28, 2012
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Debate Thank You's
Over the past couple of days I've posted either illustrations about controversial issues or made journal posts with potentially polarizing topics. But wonderfully, the vast majority of the responses to those have been overwhelmingly intellectual and well thought out discussions. I just wanted to thank everyone who participated in those discussions because I know how easily it all could've devolved into opinionated attacks, arguments, and "drama." It really makes me happy to see that I can put out a topic and people can discuss said topic without being a jerk about it. That's truly fantastic and I am very happy users proceeded with calm and collected responses. It's been a treat to read through them all.

Booklet Printing Help?
As I said before, during my time away from the internet I've been working on a bunch of illustrations that I am hoping to have printed into small booklets for conventions. The point of these booklets is to keep the costs down (making it affordable both to print and to sell), but I am running into quite a number of stumbling blocks.

The booklets are only 12 pages long (not including the front and back cover) and are full color. But many of the printing websites I've tried have really restrictive rules, such as a minimum order limit of 250 copies, or the minimum number of pages being 24. The booklets are relatively small: 5.5 x 8.5 inches, and I'm beginning to wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper to just print and staple them myself...

Please, if you have any printing suggestions, solutions, or recommendations I'd be very open to hearing them.
  • Mood: Content
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  • Watching: Doctor Who: Christmas Special
  • Playing: 3DS - Bit.Trip Beat Runner
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:iconless-than-obvious:
Less-Than-Obvious Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Could you go to a store like Staples (That's in the US right?) and see how much they would charge for printing? It might be a lot more because I don't know internet prices but it's worth a look right.
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:iconschuball:
schuball Featured By Owner Jan 3, 2013
You are still the worst, just so you know Dobson
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:iconscyoni:
Scyoni Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
You might consider making a few more works.

I'm not the most experienced with conventions, but 12 seems a little short... It might be better worth it for you and your fans if you just waited until you had the 24 page minimum. ;) But that's a matter of opinion.
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:iconneo-zander:
Neo-Zander Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Well for your printing needs... I'd just say Kinkos. They'd do it nice and clean.

Beyond this you might want to just print and do it yourself. Perhaps have Kinkos print them on good paper, and then get your self a binding machine (I'd recommend a decent 2 to 4 punch staple press but thats just me.)

Or if you have a friend that does presentations or meetings for corporate types ask them if they have the supplies.
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:iconpauljs75:
pauljs75 Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
You could use something like Scribus (if you don't have InDesign) to produce a booklet layout with the desired dimensions, then save to .pdf file format. As long as you keep the page number as a multiple of 4, impositon works ok when printing directly from the .pdf reader. (Of course software and printer settings have to be setup right, takes a bit of trial and error.)

The .pdf format will likely be your best bet if you take it to a local printer too. Particularly if you want page spread and layout a certain way.
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:iconravyncrescent:
RavynCrescent Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Professional Artisan Crafter
For #Comic-Makers-Club, we list these printers:

I recommend Lion Press. I give out free samples of my comic, and use Lion Press to print and make the booklets. It saves time, and there isn't really a minimum page requirement, so any number works, which is perfect for what you need. They are also one of the few I've found that works with people on the pricing and all the details, you are free to ask or request anything. They actually called me the first time to be certain of the order and the minor details, and offered me solutions that would bring the price down that I hadn't known about. They look out for their customers.

At my group, we have a list of resources that may be beneficial for printing needs and such.
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:icontompreston:
TomPreston Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
That's actually a really good deal, how's the quality of the printing?
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:iconravyncrescent:
RavynCrescent Featured By Owner Dec 31, 2012  Professional Artisan Crafter
The quality was antastic. I was shocked when it arrived, actually, because it was this tiny little printing shop no one had ever heard of... I think that's why they are so reliable on being able to call and ask if there are any questions or concerns.

I gave the books away free because the printing was cheap enough, and since I'm only just now becoming serious about my comics (it's always been just a passing hobby to keep my mind occupied and make others happy, now I want to actually make money from it), I used it to get people to my site for the ad revenue and it paid off well. Absolutely no complaints from anyone. The ink didn't smear when I held it, the paper didn't crease or tear easily and had a glossy sheen to it. It had weight to it, as well, which did add a bit to the shipping charges, but was well worth it for the result. I still have people coming to the site from their friends passing along the book, so it's lasted over a year with no issues.

They did not look like 100% professional comics, but they looked greater than anything Kinkos had ever provided for me, and for the price I cannot complain. The only reason I felt it did not look like a professional comic was that the paper was too thick, and there were white edges, but over all it was the same quality and look as when I print myself, or when I go to Staples to do it, and the price and the time it saves it worth it.
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:iconbearpawpaw:
BearPawPaw Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
I was at a convention and had a table next to :iconprodigybombay: once, she mentioned she prints very cheaply at Costco, I believe? I asked if she meant Kinko's and she frantically shook her head and said to never go there, which I second. Here's the site! [link] I print through my school's printing company at a discount so I never need to worry about these things, but good luck! :)
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:iconmosobot64:
mosobot64 Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Student General Artist
Ka-Blam: [link] You can pick the size you want (min 12 pages), number of copies you want (min 1), and they'll get you your comics in a timely fashion. It did great for me, it should do fine for you. :D
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:iconmaplestrip:
Maplestrip Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
I know nothing about printing, sorry. I hope you can find a good solution...

I always love a good arguument, and though I didn't really get in any despite my posts on all those journals and the art thing (comic? Not really sure how to call it) I did notice that I didn't see a single person being a jerk. It's just useless and dealing with them can be a drag (though I do tend to do my best to get rid of that kind of people -_-)
Just know that a good part of the internet consists out of smart people. There is more than cliché FPS players ;p (I already know I am going to get this shoved into my face. It was a joke and I do not believe all CoD fans are dicks -_-)
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:iconcharmie:
charmie Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
I work in a sign printing/design shop so hopefully what I know of my own area is of use to you lol.

I've noticed that when you send away for things there most certainly is a minimum number/invoice. Even our shop had a base price that no matter what you get done you have to pay, but it's only $45. Anywhoo, my suggestion is to try and local print/copy shop. You might be surprised at what services they offer. All print shops will have a nice variety of paper to choose from, (for a nice booklet I suggest no more than an 80lbs cover) and then that just leaves to inquire about binding options.

The number of pages should not be an issue. you just need to make sure it's a multiple of 4 which you have. (so that they can print both sides and fold in half.) and the size, well they should have guillotines to trim to size.

It's a bit of a pain, but I do suggest calling places close to you. Even try a signage shop, they often will do design work for businesses and print their booklets and stuff like that for them. Phone book is probably a better place to look too. I know that some places don't advertise online because they already have a solid customer base. I'm just thinking the internet businesses aren't the greatest solution for you.

Anywhoo, I hope this helps some.

Chaeers,

Lauren
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:iconpassin:
Passin Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
Can't help you here I'm afraid, sorry
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:iconunicornsquest:
unicornsquest Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Professional Traditional Artist
Did you look into Lulu.com? I think they do print on demand. Also Office Depot does some, that may work for the smaller stuff?
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:iconzippydsmlee:
ZippyDSMlee Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
Thats great you don't deserve all that grifeing!
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:iconellen-natalie:
Ellen-Natalie Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
If you want to use an online printer, (where you upload the images and they print/bind/mail it to you,) I'd recommend Ka-Blam. ([link]) They don't have a minimum number of copies you have to order, and there are options to print only 12 pages for a booklet.
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:iconpooky-di-bear:
Pooky-di-Bear Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I used to work in a small, local print shop, and they will definitely do a small job like this for you. I definitely recommend going to an actual print shop over Office Depot or other office supply stores - I go to my local Staples now because it is the only place that is open when I need it to be, and they just don't have the same paper selection and services that the print shop I worked at had. Plus, if you go to an actual shop, they can show you paper samples, do test prints, and show you a proof that you can sign off on before they produce the entire order.

Don't go to websites - they're meant for mass production because they often farm their work out to laborers in China, so large orders are how they maximize their profits. I only know this because I had to deal with some of them when I worked at the print shop.
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:iconmrscorax:
MrsCorax Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
That depends an awful lot on the size of the website company. The website I referred to is a medium sized company (with a staff-size of approximately 200), and they print locally. I am certain there are companies like this in the US, too.

But yes, I agree with the advice to stay away from major companies printing sites. And it is of course always nice to be able to go to the actual shop, look at the paper, get some advice, and all that. :) If there is a company locally, which has an actual shop, then that would be preferable.
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:iconpooky-di-bear:
Pooky-di-Bear Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Sorry, that last sentence should have been "sounds big enough that they wouldn't do that," not "doesn't sounds big enough that they wouldn't do that."
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:iconpooky-di-bear:
Pooky-di-Bear Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
If it's a local company that does local jobs but takes orders online, then that's different. I was mostly talking about the major printing websites. But even local shops sometimes farm out the work to China - it's just cheaper in some cases. Like I said, I used to work for one of those local print shops. For big digital printing orders, they ordered from big online printing companies, and that's how I found out that the product came from China. As their graphic designer, I had to make the customer's art fit the website's template, upload it, and place the order, and then all the shop owners would do is remove the packaging with the Chinese address, put the product in their own boxes, mark up the prices, and give it to the customer. The print shop had its own digital printer, but they only used it for small orders (i.e. anything under 250).

The company you referred to doesn't sounds big enough that they wouldn't do that, though.
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:iconmrscorax:
MrsCorax Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012
Exactly. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of those medium-sized shops around, though, who still print locally, but who don't have the "you need to order at least 250+ copies"-rule.

One should really urge them to make a collaborative webpage, so that people could easily find a local print shop, which made comic-prints or book-prints with a small number of printed issues.

A lot of us are so old (or just old-fashioned) that we'd prefer, if we had a physical place to come running, in case the job was poorly done, or if we have any questions, but we still want something bigger than just a couple of (oftentimes very expensive) photocopies.
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:iconpooky-di-bear:
Pooky-di-Bear Featured By Owner Dec 30, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I agree! Plus, especially if it's something I'm doing professionally or for sale, I'd definitely want to see a physical copy before the entire order is produced. I deal with such a print shop for the monthly newsletter I do for a non-profit organization, and although I can't see the proof myself (I moved out of state several years ago), someone from the organization always goes in and signs off on a printed copy, so I know nothing will come back to bite me in the butt if I missed something.
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:iconnintendovideonetwork:
NintendoVideoNetwork Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
0.o
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:iconmrscorax:
MrsCorax Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
Hey, so this is going to sound odd, but I have really great experience with this printer: www.lasertryk.dk

Problem is, it’s a Danish/Scandinavian printer-site, but on the upside, I am sure you’ve got several contacts (like Humon (sorry for volunteering you on this), or myself for that matter) who would happily help you in this (like putting in the order, mailing the boolkets to the States, stuff like that).

This printer service prints booklets (in Danish; Hæfter) down to 8 pages. For 50 copies of your 12 pages booklet, in colour, on 130g silk paper will cost you about 124 dollars, which makes for 2,5 dollars a pop.

Of course this becomes a lot cheaper the more copies you need, i.e. for 100 copies the price per booklet would range at about 1,7 dollars).

If you have two booklets, of 12 pages, and you want 50 copies of each, the company will price it as if it was 100 copies of a 12 pages booklet, thus reducing the price. :)

I have absolutely no idea how this compares to American companies’ prices, since we allegedly have higher taxes and fees than the rest of the world here in Denmark. Still, better to pay a little extra and not get stranded with 100+ copies you didn’t need, right? :D

See the link here: [link]

Generally this company has excellent quality, but that much depends on what you give them to work with and what you ask for (I.e. the work they made on my masters dissertation was not as glossy or colourful as the photo-books I’ve ordered from them, because I ordered the one as a book and the other as a high-gloss photo-book).

If you’re interested and need help, give me a holler. :) Cheers!
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:iconforbiddenhero:
forbiddenhero Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Student Writer
It might be easier to print and staple them yourself. It will be more time consuming, but it will also be a bit more personal, which could actually help. I know I'd buy something like that over something that was printed professionally.

As far as the discussion goes, you've been the topic for many debates. Your history comes up from time to time, and criticisms over your artwork tends to get me down. At least the negative ones. I know how hard it can be to be a professional artist. It doesn't pay very well, and if people don't like your work, you could get a huge backlash. That being said, I do like it when you put up discussions or you show that you're trying to improve. I love your style, so don't stop. :)

Also, I still love how you knew about when Link had pink hair. XD
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:iconazeelia:
azeelia Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
If you have two diffrent books of 12 pages, why not make it into one book of 24 pages?
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:icondraco-mcwherter:
Draco-McWherter Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012
It would be cheaper I think actually. You'll want acid free paper first off. That way your booklets won't decay over time. 50# is the thickness you should try to go for, it's a standard thickness so shouldn't be too hard.
As far as printers........kinda expensive....A laser one will be needed. It also depends on how much time you want to spend on each binding. Staples are very fast, but they don't look very nice in the end.
Here's a few simple means of binding smaller booklets by hand.
[link]
Personally, I like hte Japanese stab binding best. You can ger really artistic with it and it's quite simple. I've done it, and it's fun. Just be careful with those needles.
[link]
[link]
[link]
You can get as complex or simple as you want and there's many tutorials online. I just sent you a simple one and a more complex one. Both of the first two are the same result, but sent two just in case one was easier to understand than the other. Here's another link to show just how creative you can get with it.
[link]

It's also a lot cleaner to do this way than mess with glues. I've done the glue too and it is a tad bit more complicated. As for paper to use for your cover, I used simple cardstock or thicker colored paper. not sure if you were wanting to have anything real fancy printed on your cover or not.
As far as printing back and front of a page, make the margins how you want them in word. Then when printing, print odd numbers first then flip the pages over, making sure that page two would print on the back of one and so forth......then print the evens........make sure your pages are center. That way, when printing the odd sizes, you won't have one side of the page on one side and flip it over to have the other side on the other.
The result of how the pages could look after finished with printing.
[link]
(just an example of how pages look, different binding method used on that piece)
If you have any questions, hit me up sometime. ^^ If you think you would like to do different means than the ones I gave you there, I just hope you have fun with them and I'd be more than happy to help any way I can.
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:iconkaszimera:
Kaszimera Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Student Photographer
did you try Shutterfly? they might have a template you can use...I don't know. I didn't post a comment on your other journal about things, I tend to talk in circles or go horribly off topic....but I am glad that no one seemed disrespectful. Please take your time working on your needs and wants, those of us that care will be waiting for you, promise!
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:icontails-fan1:
TAILS-FAN1 Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012
I'm always one for an intellectual discussion when I can actually think out what I'm saying. It stinks that you've run into problems with that before. Pretty frustrating, actually.
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:iconmnjooschji:
Mnjooschji Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Student Digital Artist
Discussions are always fun to read if the participants are acting mature enough. Thankfully, I didn't really get into any discussions, even if I like joining them.
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:iconkitzelthemuse:
KitzelTheMuse Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
well if you do print and make the books yourself, I'd suggest a different method to bind it into a book. If you or a friend has a plastic coil binding machine as well as a rectangle hole punch you can bind the pages and your covers that way... Hrmm. My google fu tells me I may need pictures to show what I mean: Or at least links to illustrate the supplies I refer to.
[link] Any of these methods would make your books look more professional in my opinion. Staples may hold paper together, but it doesn't look very pro. It's just a suggestion that maybe you can think about. I prefer the Plastic Binding Comb method myself, and the machine that goes with it is very easy to use. In fact most schools have all those supplies on hand. My old High School was big on making their own book of poetry each year, and I loved putting them together. :3 Hope this helps! :)
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:icontoranekohybrid:
toranekohybrid Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012
For the Print Center I work at specifically. 8.5 x 11 copies are currently $.49 US per side. Depending on if you mean each page is 5.5 x 8.5, or if the whole booklet is that size will tell how much you're looking at. (Machine bookletting is currently $.55 US- and that's the price of folding, stapling and trimming off excess that sticks out after folding.)

This is based off of the base paper type for the store, which is a white, laser 24# stock. Pretty generic. If you want something heavier, (and you don't provide the stock) it can go up to $.72 US for one side of each sheet.

File setup can sometimes be as easy as saving the file as a .pdf, and then when setting it to print, printing with the 'booklet' style in page sizing chosen. If your Acrobat is cooperative (might need Acrobat Pro, not sure). Microsoft Publisher also works, or Adobe InDesign.
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:iconrafferty:
Rafferty Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Professional Artist
Combine two 12-page booklets into a double sided book?
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:icongenisay:
Genisay Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I think one of your best bets, rather then using websites, would be to try and find a local printer. Prices usually are not too bad, you'd save money on the ink you would need to print them yourself, and they can either do the cutting and stapling for you, or you can just get the prints made and do the rest yourself. That way you can better control how many you actually want to make at one time.

My roommate works with an Office Max in the print center, so if you still need some advice, I'll point her at this journal and she might be able to help.
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:iconpwassonne:
pwassonne Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Agreed.
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:iconchao195:
chao195 Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
i second this
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:iconkarmada:
Karmada Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm glad for more rationality in the internet world, that's for sure!

In regards to booklets:

It sounds like it would be easier to just print and staple them yourself. I have one of those long staplers and they're pretty easy to find in office supply stores - they're great for said booklets!

I would check around and see if there are a couple of local print shops - they might be able to print you smaller quantities than online shops. And chances are likely they'll have nicer printers/paper than say... FedEx.

The hardest part is probably just doing the set up of the pages in whatever program you prefer, and deciding if you want single sided or double sided pages. :) I love to use Illustrator for that (now that they have multiple artboards available you can lay out all the pages in one file) or InDesign if I'm feeling fancy.
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:iconguardianoftheflame:
GuardianOfTheFlame Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I took a very basic printing class in College, and the hardest part is layout and the style you decide to use. There are actually tutorials here on DA for some basic ones, and you could probably find tutorials online for it as well. And even with 5.5" paper, a standard stapler won't work, you'd need to buy a longer one, maybe heavy-duty if you get thicker paper if you want to do standard mini-book binding with staples.

Though those tutorials could probably help more than I could.
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:iconhergman:
Hergman Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012
well, i guess that this is proof that the Ad Hominem attackers seems to somehow have been weeded out in a way.
maybe they saw that trolling didn't work as well?
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:iconpaladin343:
Paladin343 Featured By Owner Jan 1, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Maybe they got bored.
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:iconhergman:
Hergman Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2013
could be :shrug:

but in all cases, its a better situation
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:iconfluffylover1986:
FluffyLover1986 Featured By Owner Dec 28, 2012
Well, if you ruffle nobody's fur, you're doing it wrong!
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