Sta.sh
So I guess my last journal kinda annoyed a few people who were upset at being generally labeled “gamers” when talking about the extremists who are using the term for their own causes: ie: #GamerGate. I’m not going to apologize for writing the journal that way, though. If you don’t want to be associated with those bigots and your first reaction is to personally vindicate yourself from the herd instead of, you know, fighting the main source of the problem... them I’m sorry but that negative version of “gamer” that you’re trying so hard to avoid being associated with IS how you are being perceived by the greater non-gamer entrenched world.
THEY don’t care that you “only want to play games that are fun,” because what they’re SEEING (and reporting on) is a hoard mentality of angry people rallying against women in gaming and harassing them to unreal levels. No matter how much you try to distance yourself or think that this is all just a vocal minority... that vocal minority is speaking so loudly that THEY are the only ones being HEARD right now. By distancing yourself from it and pretending like it doesn’t affect you, you’re basically giving them a free wide open space to spew their hateful bile everywhere where everyone else can see it.
“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.”
~Desmond Tutu
So yeah... I’m sorry guys but that negative label of the angry gamer rallying against social justice? That IS how you are being perceived no matter how much you may try to deny or dismiss it. Maybe, instead of trying to save your own skin you should be, I dunno, confronting the problem at it’s source? How many times am I going to have to come out and write a new journal explaining how the concept of “not all ____” is just a dismissal of any actual involvement with what really matters? I am so sick and tired of people trying to distance themselves rather than admit “ya know what? These people are giving my preferred hobby a bad name. Maybe I should do something so people who matter know that they are not the vocal majority?”
And if you’re looking for answers on HOW to combat it? Write articles. Write journals. Respond to tweets explaining why things like #GamerGate is stupid and degrading. Make videos. Spread the word. Basically CONFRONT the problem instead of sitting here in a journal saying “I’m not part of their movement therefor I’m not part of the problem!”
It actually takes WORK to fix these things, you know?
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Mood:
Angsty - Watching: Atop The 4th Wall
- Playing: Marvel Puzzle Quest
- Drinking: Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.
If you know what those numbers mean then you can quote Tutu again tom until then shhhh.
Otherwise yeah decent points still the most important way we can help gaming is to encourage people too put out fun, enjoyable, and most importantly good products
I'd just like to point out, however, that the choice of being 'neutral' is exactly what Tom is critiquing. Furthermore, he goes on to argue about how it can be detrimental to the outcome the 'neutrals' want as a whole. So if you're neutral, you might want to be aware of the fact that you're actually adding to the problem. Evasion leads to a negative outcome. So if you really want to change perceptions, you might consider taking a stand instead.
Again, I'm just reiterating Tom's points for the sake of the general discussion and this comment is not aimed towards you at all. I hope that's fine!
How about I just let them rip each other's throats out. I find it better to just stay out of stuff like this. It's all just going to sort itself out anyway. Though if you want to fight for this pointless cause have at this little crusade. I really don't care. I blame the fact that internet is too easy to access now. People are given something to hide behind like cowards. And honestly posting journal after journal on da isn't going to do anything about this crap that's going on. Awareness can only do so much.
Also, do continue being ageist. No amounts of 'sadly kid' is going to change the fact that you couldn't comprehend a simple point.
AGAIN: I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A FIGHT AND I RESPECT YOUR OPINION, PLUS THE COMMENT WASN'T FOR YOU ANYWAY. I didn't talk about how I would personally not share such a passive POV, cause I didn't aim this comment towards you AT ALL.
I think I've said the point about 10 times till now, I can only hope it sinks in. So much for being courteous the first time.
did my comment bother you that badly? Never mind just looked it up and did that seriously offend you? Your 15 what the heck am I suppose to call you? You aren't an adult and forgive me but that's how I talk. At least I didn't call you a bitch or some other hateful word.
To me HTML is like Capslock. It's almost like you are shouting. I get it you don't care, no need to yell.
neither am I. You just caught me early in the morning and I am not a morning person when I wake up. If it wasn't meant for me then why did you send it to me? That is what I would like to know. Honestly I appreciate you being courteous. Just I'm not very tolerable when I wake up. Ok I think we should just both part ways now. Sorry for being an ass though.
As an answer to your question: I've already said this before, but that comment was for the sake of adding to the discussion. Your one statement summed up the attitude of quite a few below you, and so I thought it best to reply to you.
Yes, lets part ways. ^^
sounds like a plan. Though I will say this you have some nice art in your gallery keep up the good work and have a good one.
I don't agree with them, but it sounds like someone took it upon themselves to make her the victim she pretends to be.
And what in the world do you mean that she isn't a victim? She has been constantly harassed and attacked on the internet, I've seen the videos and they're incredibly rude and biased.
The harassment was definitely wrong and definitely went way too far, but Zoe wasn't an angel herself, and the incident wasn't just because she's a girl, that itself is a very dismissive statement reducing the complex situation surrounding these events down to "it happened because she's a woman who made a game."
If that's the case, why don't all female game developers get doxxed and harassed like this?
That's why I was neutral. Not because I didn't care, but because I couldn't see which side was worth supporting. I have no respect for Zoe Quinn, but she didn't deserve the harassment, and that's why I stayed out of the fighting, I couldn't see a side that was worth taking. If people stop giving the fight attention, it'll probably go away quicker.
This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately, and eventually I came to the very sad realization:
The problem is that you can tell the troglodytes whatever, and because they have their infinite circle-jerk of hate - known as 4chan - they'll just reassure themselves at the end that they were in the right and keep on going forward full steam. You are essentially ordering people to start shooting other people because - sadly enough - that's the only way they'll be stopped, which isn't really legal here. I truly wish there was anything that could be done about certain angry people to curb them, but there isn't.
The most beautiful and hideous thing the internet gave the world was connection; it created beauty by bringing people together that could have never collaborated otherwise, and created hideousness by bringing mentally disturbed people together that were historically only kept down by their isolation.
Outside of erecting extensive psychological personal examinations in order to earn a license to earn the right to go online, there is nothing you can do anymore to keep the demon horde from organizing. Now that they've organized, there is nothing you can do to dissuade them from their path of evil and violence. The only solutions then are to either remove freedom from the internet - or to begin shooting people - or some combination of both, and this is not the ends that either of us want I think.
Please tell me I'm actually wrong if you can genuinely believe that. However - remember this - has one thing you've ever said changed 4chan's harassment of you, and do you actually believe at this point that anything ever will? It is for this reason that I posit there is no solution to this ever. No matter what any of us do anymore, save for the methods I've already mentioned, 4chan (and those like them) will be there to one up it - from behind their many proxies - and assure that their status quo of evil remains.
You are right that connection has brought people together and allowed the development of insular communities, but throwing the entirety of 4chan under a bus simply because you have heard some bad things involving the worst board on the site (that even other users of 4chan agree is horrible and only gets to continue to exist because removing it would cause those users to flood other boards and ruin the site as a whole.)
Honestly, you need to go takes some time and lurk some good boards (like /tg/, /vp/, /co/, /ck/) and see exactly how the statement of them being an 'internet hate machine' is greatly exaggerated. I won't try to say that 4chan is nice and polite (cause people are definitely crass there), but what you're doing is the equivalent of going to a school, seeing the class for delinquents, then assuming the school is nothing but delinquents.
(And to be fair, it's probably /pol/ who's been more of a problem than /b/ in this debacle; and /v/ has been surprisingly good natured about it)
Saying we need to stop the evils of these disturbed people is one thing, and a beautiful thought, but saying things is a very cheap and easy thing to do. I desperately want someone to give a real plan, rather than just saying it's our responsibility, that also won't just fail either because:
1) It involves pressuring 4chan to stop (negative 100% success rate, their circle-jerk collective will assure them they are still right).
2) It would require removing freedom from the internet to prevent 4chan from organizing again, by legalizing who may use it.
3) It would require killing/jailing all of 4chan to keep them from one upping any good anyone else accomplished (something we can't do).
There are sick and EVIL people online, and they have created their evil citadel of collaboration. Anything we can do anymore, they - who are protected by freedom of speech - will simply do something more vile to reinstate their status quo of evil afterwards. Until you propose how you can make them stop - something words alone can never accomplish - without breaking laws in the process, there will never be anything any of us can due to that group of troglodytes.
Freedom of Speech is a double edged sword; and for every beautiful thing it will create, it will also create and undestroyable demon (making you wonder if it was ever worth it to begin with, although I would still say it was).
Hyper-condensed: How do you propose to ever do anything to curtail people like 4chan - whom have a collective of evil, that will always reassure themselves that they were in the right no matter what is done - as without a better plan you are essentially either ordering people to take up arms and begin shooting all of 4chan, or perhaps arguing against freedom on the internet? Please, name one REAL method for going forward. Something that can bypass the fact that their circle-jerk of evil can reassure themselves of their demon path no matter what you do or say, and the fact that it would be illegal to do anything to them that would make it impossible for them to continue forward either. I am honestly at wit's end on what anyone could ever - legally - do to one to these people anymore, and I genuinely want them to stop also.
Mega Hyper TL;DR:
How?!
The point here was to show just how unrealistic the stated claims of "It's your responsibility to defeat all the Dark Collectives, for you're really just supporting them otherwise" truly are, because there really isn't anyway to ever accomplish said mandate (sans violence, and/or censorship).
Furthermore, I apologize if there's actually a group online called "The Dark Collective". I have to use some label to refer to these people, and odds are that every name ever conceivable - sans for me pounding at the keyboard randomly - has probably already been used somewhere by someone. If a group is actually called that, then I promise that I'm not really talking about them specifically either.
Also I was just trying to make a joke... I should've added an emoticon or something. Sorry! My efforts to lighten the mood have failed
Personally I think it sends a negative message to young female developers that gaming journalism is corrupt and they might be expected to "Put out" if they want to make it big in the gaming world.
I can see the potential for it being corruption and the dangers it might lead into... but so far I've seen no evidence that this is a common occurrence that happens ALL THE TIME to worry about.
That's an extraordinary claim. You need extraordinary evidence to back it up. Prove the quid-pro-quo and we can talk. Until that time, #Gamergate is just slut-shaming, sexist bullcrap.
But yeah, how can I complain ? Everyone around me, the people who are with me, will be the only one to listen to what I say, and they're already agreeing with me !
Should I try to begin fight with people I don't know everywhere because of that ?
The people that give death threats to Anita?
Firstly there's no proof that whoever sent those death threats are linked with #GamerGate, and even if there was a link, calling an entire movement "Stupid" because of a small percentage of bad apple gamers is.... well as you put it; stupid.
Would you say the same thing about feminism? Would you look at this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVuK44… and think: "You know what, screw feminism and everything it stands for" just because it's made up of a small percent of angry bitter hypocrite like the women in that video?
My guess is no, because you believe in what feminism as a movement stands for, and that's all that should matter, and yet you're doing the same thing against gaming community and #GamerGate Mr. Dobson, you're disregarding everything it stands for simply because there is a small percent of bad apples making the rest of us look bad.
Ignore the bad, focus on the good, and focus on the ideas and what a movement stands for.
One is a group of movements dedicated to researching, recognizing, confronting, and reducing discrimination on the basis of gender...
One is a group of people that have the same hobby.
You may not be able to link the threats and abuse suffered by Anita to be part of "#Gamergate, (I don't think the claim is completely unfounded) but she isn't the only one to get hot by this avalanche of abuse: www.themarysue.com/gamergate-h…
Gamers want a community dedicated to fun games and fair coverage, free of biased and agenda in gaming journalism.
What the game community and (real) feminists have in common however, is the type of scrutiny they receive, scrutiny based on a small percent of people that spout hate and death threats on behalf of their collective communities, making the rest of their community look bad.
With feminist it's the fem nazis who hate all men.
With Gamers it's the 13 year old on xbox live saying "Tits or GTFO".
You know all feminists aren't like that, and I know all gamers aren't like that, so why the hate?
Let's not let the few bad apples of the communities shape our opinion on them.
I don't know much about the entire #gamergate thing, so forgive me if I'm wrong.
The point Tom is making is that it's quite detrimental to forgo the original name of the cause. What he's trying to say is that the gamers who are sick and tired of the stereotypes should stick to their original name and change the connotations of 'gamer' from negative to positive. It's possible, look how far the words 'nerd' and 'geek' have come!
So basically, #yes us feminists, #yes us gamers. We should be proud of our communities, and we shouldn't try to separate ourselves from that which we hold dear. Don't move away from the bad section of the community, move the bad section of the community away from you.
I hope that's the gist of it, cause that's what I understood! What do you think, TomPreston?
I've never seen a "man-hating feminist." They seem to be a sort-of Social Justice Bigfoot, used to excuse certain anti-feminist behaviors. When having honest discussions with even the most radical or angry feminists shows that this "hatred of men" is very much exaggerated.
Saying that "feminists who hate all men" are "just like the sexist gamers" is saying that there are equal numbers of the two. From the looks of things (research, articles, comments on said articles, etc.) it seems that the latter vastly outnumbers the former, assuming that the former really even exists as you say.
But lets assume that you are right, and that the proportion of "sour grape" feminists is equal to the "bad apple" gamers. This week, we have seen women doxed and threatened so severely by gamers that they have had to call the police/flee from their homes/resign from their jobs. When Anita first announced the "Video Games Vs. Women" series, she was met with a horrible barrage of sexist threats and abuse. If what you say is true, and these anti-men feminists are just as bad as anti-feminist gamers, where are they? Show me the men who have been individually targeted and threatened with rape and death by feminists? Show me the myriad of comments on men's appearance and sexuality as a means of discrediting them?
These are not the same.
(Also, maybe think twice before using a term that equates members of an anti-oppressive social movement with a genocidal regime.)
Gladly:
twitter.com/Werpleflargan/stat…
twitter.com/BunnyMage/status/5…
twitter.com/crudbutt/status/50…
I'd also like to say; Who get's what kind of threats/ harassment it NOT a competition, and like I said before: We shouldn't let a couple of bad apples in a community skew our opinion on the rest of them.
2-There's absolutely no threats of violence or abuse here. None. Especially none to the level faced by Anita or Zoe: twitter.com/femfreq/status/504…
3-Again, has this person been doxxed? Is this person in danger? Look at the context.
People who pull the "It's not a competition" are usually the ones who have the better end of the deal. You started this thread by saying that feminists and gamers are the same, both have "bad eggs." I'm saying that they're not all that similar once you take into account their influences, and the societal context. #Gamergate may not be run or pushed by the majority of gamers, but they're claiming to be working for gamers, and they're big/destructive/threatening enough to result in real-life dangers. "man-hating feminists" aren't.
If you have bothered to delve deeper you would realize that gaming culture has hit a critical diversity from the 80's and they are of different creeds, ancestry, gender, homosexual, Hetrosexual, at a global level now, that you decided to in one fell stroke lump together on the basis of a simple stereotype, being perpetuated by uneducated fools trying to get people to view their biased report. Then you decide through your bigotry that if people weren't out there fighting it and making more noise they are just as guilty as the sorry lot dishing out abuse. Sorry there is no mob mentality and in most games where there is an abusive bigot shouting out crap they are quickly kicked from the game, reported and out right banned by the company that made it so that can't play it again. Even then there are others out there fighting those who abuse people on a daily basis on the web and it doesn't help when some lookeyloo who just came onto the scene then judge it from that point on rather then getting to the truth of the matter.
You took something so beautiful then maimed and mutilated it so you can degrade the community in pious tone of a hypocritical Preacher who only wears the cloth for the power it gives him.
SO TRY AGAIN AND LOOK MORE CLOSER RATHER THEN TAKING SOMETHING AT OBVIOUS FACE VALUE YOU BLIND FOOL!
If you actually took the time to try and understand what I was saying rather than blabbering on like an idiot, you'd see that I'm trying to point out that it's the world who are judging us. And if you've been following my journals or tweets or anything for some time and aren't here to just bitch because my name popped up, you'd know that I've REPEATEDLY SAID "of course not all ____ are bad people, that's just common sense." But when the world is judging you and you're not doing anything to shut up the vocal minority making a fuss and harassing people, the world IS going to judge you harshly. It's ALREADY happening. Remember how Nintendo made those commercials saying "I'm not a gamer?" The term itself already has negative connotations.
So rather than claim I'm "not a gamer" or whatever it is you're blathering on about, why don't you try to combat the already negative perception this journal was discussing?
The fact is you failed to even acknowledge that in this post and is evident of your clear ignorance of how the real gaming culture community works. If your "Yes All Gamers" was a work of satire or sarcasm you clearly failed to clarify that in this post, and quite frankly this is my only beef with you and this journal. Your other works I enjoy.
Understand that I don't hate you, I feel disappointed in someone with so much experience to write a piece expecting only their die hard fanbase to understand while those new would be driven off by the obvious prejudice you clearly displayed in that post as you demanded they write journals and actively fight in campaign against hate in gaming culture and seem to lump them together if they didn't. This post you say is satire and sarcasm clearly didn't even get through to someone as autistic as I am and clearly would explain the root of most your misunderstandings with your messages.
Quite frankly an example was your demand that the gaming culture out their should all be vocally shouting out against those bigots, despite clear evidence that the majority of gamers are impartial is quite insulting especially as they report and get those players banned from such game.
Satire, Sarcasm or not you failed to convey that in this journal entry. My only hope is you learn from this and clearly try to illustrate your stance on this subject because right now gamers are now getting sick of being lumped in with those bigots as they work to deal with them in the games themselves and the fact that the mainstream news is ignoring them as the youtube celebs out there are working hard to clarify their impartial nature are also being ignored for popular ratings isn't helping anyone. This culture is beautiful, I have never felt more in-tuned with a stranger from across the world who speaks a foreign language I don't understand as we work together to win a game. My view is the same as before, you took something this transcendent and mutilated to suite your own purposes that right now clearly failed to send the message you intended.
Please learn from this and clarify your stance in your other beliefs.
You my friend are just as prejudice, despite the fact that gamers out there report those who are abusive on a daily basis. There are youtube gaming celebrities actively fighting and enlightening the masses on becoming aware of the situation. But like my example above, because the other group isn't making as much noise and the focus is on the negative extremists of the gamer culture you would prejudge the lot without taking a closer look.
A great example of how impartial gamers are was yesterday when I played a game with some people who spoke a foreign, we didn't understand each other but through the game objectives we actively worked together and cheered when we completed it. That is what gaming is, a culture where it doesn't matter what background, gender, sexual preference, religion, etc when you work together for something fun from people on a global level you have something beautiful. Those that are abusive are reported to the company to dealt with swiftly but again, because it's never spoken about or given any focus people prejudge the lot in a negative connotation.
All this hate and targeting on the entire gamer culture based on a tiny group getting more focus when on a daily basis impartial gamers report those who are abusive to have them removed and dealt with while arguing them on the internet. Well if that isn't being a prejudice bigot then I don't know what is.